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[#] Mon Jul 08 2019 20:50:35 MST from Wangiss <wangiss@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Just gave my 10-year-old son a Spelljammer module. He's pretty excited. "What is jettisoning?" Next up: dictionary. 



[#] Mon Jul 08 2019 20:51:58 MST from Wangiss <wangiss@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Oh, man. Citadel BBS is infinitely prefable to Facebook groups. I love this format so much. 



[#] Mon Jul 08 2019 22:15:25 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Mon Jul 08 2019 20:51:58 MST from Wangiss

Oh, man. Citadel BBS is infinitely prefable to Facebook groups. I love this format so much. 



I love Citadel. If only we could create more traffic on it. Invite friends who D&D. It was actually designed to be an online FRP. That is where the concept of "rooms" you can "goto" originated. Interesting tidbit of trivia, there. :) 

 



[#] Sat Jul 13 2019 11:53:00 MST from Wangiss <wangiss@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Mon Jul 08 2019 22:15:25 MST from ParanoidDelusions

 

Mon Jul 08 2019 20:51:58 MST from Wangiss

Oh, man. Citadel BBS is infinitely prefable to Facebook groups. I love this format so much. 



I love Citadel. If only we could create more traffic on it. Invite friends who D&D. It was actually designed to be an online FRP. That is where the concept of "rooms" you can "goto" originated. Interesting tidbit of trivia, there. :) 

 



That's awesome. I tried my hand at MUDs back in the day, but I didn't really get it.



[#] Sat Jul 13 2019 16:44:02 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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I played a MUD... and the space trading one... which was also basically a MUD in space. 

They were pretty basic. 

 



[#] Sun Jul 14 2019 15:02:41 MST from TheDave <thedave@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Mon Jul 08 2019 20:50:35 MST from Wangiss

Just gave my 10-year-old son a Spelljammer module. He's pretty excited. "What is jettisoning?" Next up: dictionary. 

I'm pretty sure I kept the book that's the Rock of Bral, I'd be willing to send that along to you too if it would be useful.  It's one of the main spaceports in wildspace.



[#] Sat Jul 20 2019 11:46:01 MST from Wangiss <wangiss@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Sun Jul 14 2019 15:02:41 MST from TheDave

 

Mon Jul 08 2019 20:50:35 MST from Wangiss

Just gave my 10-year-old son a Spelljammer module. He's pretty excited. "What is jettisoning?" Next up: dictionary. 

I'm pretty sure I kept the book that's the Rock of Bral, I'd be willing to send that along to you too if it would be useful.  It's one of the main spaceports in wildspace.



If you look through your stack, The Boy would love any 2e materials you still have that you're willing to part with. 



[#] Sat Jul 20 2019 11:46:36 MST from Wangiss <wangiss@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Sat Jul 13 2019 16:44:02 MST from ParanoidDelusions

I played a MUD... and the space trading one... which was also basically a MUD in space. 

They were pretty basic. 

 



Trade Wars 2002 was my favorite door game ever. 



[#] Sun Jul 21 2019 12:59:24 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Yeah. I was Hector DePacas and my group or federation or whatever was El Galactic Lowriders. 

 



[#] Tue Jul 23 2019 09:20:16 MST from TheDave <thedave@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Sat Jul 20 2019 11:46:01 MST from Wangiss
Sun Jul 14 2019 15:02:41 MST from TheDave 
Mon Jul 08 2019 20:50:35 MST from Wangiss

Just gave my 10-year-old son a Spelljammer module. He's pretty excited. "What is jettisoning?" Next up: dictionary. 

I'm pretty sure I kept the book that's the Rock of Bral, I'd be willing to send that along to you too if it would be useful.  It's one of the main spaceports in wildspace.

If you look through your stack, The Boy would love any 2e materials you still have that you're willing to part with. 

You've already got essentially all of them except that and the 3rd part of the Marco Volo adventure series.



[#] Wed Jul 24 2019 12:48:55 MST from Wangiss <wangiss@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Sweet. 



[#] Tue Sep 03 2019 22:05:25 MST from TheDave <thedave@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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I do have a folder on my computer that has every TSR D&D book published and most of the 3rd edition stuff.



[#] Wed Sep 04 2019 11:06:07 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Tue Sep 03 2019 22:05:25 MST from TheDave

I do have a folder on my computer that has every TSR D&D book published and most of the 3rd edition stuff.



I need Unearthed Arcana, Dieties and Demigods, and the Monster Manual. Lost them somewhere along the way. 

 



[#] Mon Dec 16 2019 01:39:51 MST from TheDave <thedave@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Wed Sep 04 2019 11:06:07 MST from ParanoidDelusions

 

Tue Sep 03 2019 22:05:25 MST from TheDave

I do have a folder on my computer that has every TSR D&D book published and most of the 3rd edition stuff.



I need Unearthed Arcana, Dieties and Demigods, and the Monster Manual. Lost them somewhere along the way. 

 



I'll see about getting those into my dropbox.  Remind me later.



[#] Mon Dec 23 2019 13:27:07 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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I might have the PDFs... what I really want is my original print copies. :) 

I have taken to printing out old 8 bit manuals, hole punching them, and putting them in binders. Works just as well. It is amazing that I've got a color printer and a 3D printer and I can print out all the documentation for my favorite games and then print out a joystick and play those games on an FPGA device with stunning accuracy. 15 year old me would be blown away with the toys 50 year old me has. 

 



[#] Mon Mar 23 2020 00:07:21 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Do you play fantasy role playing games? On paper? This is the room to talk about that. Mostly the medieval stuff with dwarves and elves and orcs - but, I'd probably be OK if it were mutants and robots or spies or federation starfleets, too. I'm a pretty lax Sysop. Google it. Paul Martin is not. He is a hard-ass. 

 



[#] Tue Jul 28 2020 15:10:18 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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We were doing so good, too. Let's try again. So, I was rewatching the Lord of the Rings with my wife, and I realized the "Orcs are a racist stereotype," thing in 5th Ed AD&D arises not from Tolkien's Orc's, or D&D's Orcs, but from Peter Jackson's orcs. In particular they have some very "tribal" visual cues, including dreadlocks and face-marking with palm prints and simple geometic patterns. But I don't think it was consciously racist, though. The designer was told to make them look frightening and like warriors - and they looked at historic examples of warrior cultures and implemented those cues in the orcs in the move.


The Hobbit on the other hand, the Goblin King was clearly a racist trope about fat, indulged Englishmen, the Pale Orc takes center stage, and there are these long, pandering shots of people of color, way too many of them, who are residents of Laketown. That is one thing LOtR got right. Rohan is a monolithicly white kingdom of horsemen. There was no attempt to pander to inclusion or cultural sensitivity. It made them inherently better movies than the Hobbit. I don't think people even consciously recognize the reason why they found LOTR more satisfying than The Hobbit - and just chakled it up to LOTR being weightier material, the Hobbit being more of a child's book. But that isn't it. Not completely. It also wasn't the forced Elf on Dwarf romance or much else. It was that it took a formula, and then tried to fit in a number of bullet points based on criticisms of the first Trilogy. It was no longer telling the story, it was sending a message and using the story as a vehicle.

And the 5th Ed generation of D&D player grew up on The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit - and so, that is *their* sole concept of what an Orc is. Maybe from WoW, too. Either way - not an accurate, traditional, pig snouted version of the orc that was washed of any human ethnicity.

It is too bad. Social Justice is a cancer.

[#] Tue Nov 10 2020 13:15:38 MST from TheDave <thedave@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Tue Jul 28 2020 15:10:18 MST from ParanoidDelusions
the "Orcs are a racist stereotype," thing in 5th Ed AD&D

And the 5th Ed generation of D&D player grew up on The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit - and so, that is *their* sole concept of what an Orc is. Maybe from WoW, too. Either way - not an accurate, traditional, pig snouted version of the orc that was washed of any human ethnicity.

Yeah I'm in a couple of 5e groups on facebook and anytime someone tries to make this argument they're beaten into submission by the rest of us.  So it's not that this argument isn't a thing so much as it's not a thing that carries much weight with the community.  We have enough grognards that remember how and why the orc tropes exist and that it's a fantasy game so real evil can exist and that postmodern moral relativism isn't fun the way good vs evil is fun, although we do appreciate the twist that it can bring when people are too entrenched in their mindset.



[#] Tue Nov 10 2020 13:36:07 MST from ParanoidDelusions <paranoiddelusions@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Tue Nov 10 2020 13:15:38 MST from TheDave

 

Yeah I'm in a couple of 5e groups on facebook and anytime someone tries to make this argument they're beaten into submission by the rest of us.  So it's not that this argument isn't a thing so much as it's not a thing that carries much weight with the community.  We have enough grognards that remember how and why the orc tropes exist and that it's a fantasy game so real evil can exist and that postmodern moral relativism isn't fun the way good vs evil is fun, although we do appreciate the twist that it can bring when people are too entrenched in their mindset.




Yeah, I like subversive plot twists - where you end up meeting a GOOD Red Dragon - or at least, one that is a kind of evil that can agree to and abide by a mutually beneficial agreement... something out of the ordinary expectation that is well executed and potentially mind blowing - and if you're so entrenched in an "all of these are evil," mindset that you can't experience something like that and give it a shot - that is as big of a problem as going the other way. 

With that said, just because my character thinks ALL orcs are evil doesn't mean *I* believe that - and players seem to have trouble with that concept, too. My character exists in a world where it is humanity against Orcs, where there has been constant conflict, and he is a professional adventurer. He is *invested* professionally in the idea that this world view is true. 

"What would you do if you came on a room full of cowering women and children orcs?" 

Well... I never would, because they're make believe. But Elidor Moonphase, 25th level Wizard, is going to cast a fireball into that room and quickly close the door. Because he truly believes the only good Orc is a dead Orc. 
Elidor isn't exactly Sauramon - but he isn't Gandalf the White, either. But I'm not playing *ME* as a Wizard, I'm playing *A* Wizard. It is like criticizing an actor for playing an evil character that does bad things - that this SUPPORTS that evil. 


No. It makes the character a reflection of reality. 

And any 9th level 5th Ed. players who disagree are free to take that up with Elidor's 24 6d6 of Fireball damage if they disagree with how he behaves. Even if you win initiative, you'll miss and he'll get the first shot. He didn't get to level 24th by letting any melee or ranged attacks hit him *first*. ;) 

 





[#] Tue Nov 10 2020 21:21:15 MST from TheDave <thedave@tsbbs.wallofhate.com>

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Tue Nov 10 2020 13:36:07 MST from ParanoidDelusions

 

Tue Nov 10 2020 13:15:38 MST from TheDave

 

Yeah I'm in a couple of 5e groups on facebook and anytime someone tries to make this argument they're beaten into submission by the rest of us.  So it's not that this argument isn't a thing so much as it's not a thing that carries much weight with the community.  We have enough grognards that remember how and why the orc tropes exist and that it's a fantasy game so real evil can exist and that postmodern moral relativism isn't fun the way good vs evil is fun, although we do appreciate the twist that it can bring when people are too entrenched in their mindset.




Yeah, I like subversive plot twists - where you end up meeting a GOOD Red Dragon - or at least, one that is a kind of evil that can agree to and abide by a mutually beneficial agreement... something out of the ordinary expectation that is well executed and potentially mind blowing - and if you're so entrenched in an "all of these are evil," mindset that you can't experience something like that and give it a shot - that is as big of a problem as going the other way. 

With that said, just because my character thinks ALL orcs are evil doesn't mean *I* believe that - and players seem to have trouble with that concept, too. My character exists in a world where it is humanity against Orcs, where there has been constant conflict, and he is a professional adventurer. He is *invested* professionally in the idea that this world view is true. 

"What would you do if you came on a room full of cowering women and children orcs?" 

Well... I never would, because they're make believe. But Elidor Moonphase, 25th level Wizard, is going to cast a fireball into that room and quickly close the door. Because he truly believes the only good Orc is a dead Orc. 
Elidor isn't exactly Sauramon - but he isn't Gandalf the White, either. But I'm not playing *ME* as a Wizard, I'm playing *A* Wizard. It is like criticizing an actor for playing an evil character that does bad things - that this SUPPORTS that evil. 


No. It makes the character a reflection of reality. 

And any 9th level 5th Ed. players who disagree are free to take that up with Elidor's 24 6d6 of Fireball damage if they disagree with how he behaves. Even if you win initiative, you'll miss and he'll get the first shot. He didn't get to level 24th by letting any melee or ranged attacks hit him *first*. ;) 

 





Diane Pureheart is a Paladin of Tempus who watched orcs slaughter her family when she was 9.  All orcs are evil.  Non-evil orcs don't exist.  No I don't need to waste my time using my special ability to make sure.  They're orcs.

One of my players wrote me a two page essay about why that's racist and she should lose her powers for being evil.  I laughed him to scorn.  The God of War doesn't give a shit about racism.

Another player became concerned at my actions.  I was defending a wizard and we teleported to an area controlled by magic averse barbarians.  They wanted me to surrender the wizard to them for a trial.  I refused and told them that they could let us pass peacefully and live or they could attack us and die.  They chose to die, and the DM asked how many of the village I was willing to slaughter in defense of my charge.  I said "Every man woman and child that attacks us will die.  All they have to do to live is stand down."  Apparently they're unfamiliar with medieval knightly codes of conduct.  I was sworn to protect my charge with my life.  With every stroke I demanded that they yield.  None would.  They all fell.  Not my fault they're too proud and stupid to live.



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